Alain Eril ndi Sophie Cadalene: "Kukondana kumabadwa chifukwa chophwanya taboos"

Katswiri wodziwa za kugonana, Alain Héril, amakhulupirira kuti akazi ayamba kusonyeza chilakolako chawo pang'onopang'ono ... koma amachita motsatira malamulo a amuna. Katswiri wa zamaganizo a Sophie Cadalen amayankha yankho mosiyana: kukopeka ndi malo omwe malire pakati pa amuna ndi akazi amatha ... Ndipo mkangano, monga mukudziwa, chowonadi chimabadwa.

Psychology: Kodi pali kukhudzika kwachikazi kosiyana ndi kwa amuna?

Sophie Cadalen: Sindingatchule zokopa zachikazi, zomwe zikanakhala khalidwe la mkazi aliyense. Koma nthawi yomweyo, ndikudziwa motsimikiza: pali nthawi zomwe zimangochitika ngati mkazi. Ndipo izo siziri zofanana ndi kukhala mwamuna. Kusiyana kumeneku ndi kumene kumatisangalatsa poyamba. Timaganizira, ngakhale pali tsankho zambiri, kuti timvetsetse: mwamuna ndi mkazi ndi chiyani? timayembekezera chiyani kwa wina ndi mzake pogonana? chokhumba chathu ndi njira yosangalalira ndi chiyani? Koma tisanayankhe mafunso amenewa, tiyenera kuganizira zinthu zitatu izi: nthawi imene tikukhalamo, nthawi imene tinakulira, komanso mmene zinthu zinalili pakati pa amuna ndi akazi mpaka pano.

Alain Eril: Tiyeni tiyese kufotokozera erotica. Kodi tingatchule gwero lililonse la kudzutsa chilakolako chogonana? Kapena nchiyani chomwe chimatidabwitsa ife, kuyambitsa kutentha kwa mkati? Zonse zongopeka komanso zosangalatsa zimalumikizidwa ndi mawu awa… Kwa ine, erotica ndi lingaliro lachikhumbo, lomwe limaperekedwa kudzera muzithunzi. Choncho, musanalankhule za kukhudzika kwa akazi, munthu ayenera kufunsa ngati pali zithunzi zenizeni zachikazi. Ndipo apa ndikugwirizana ndi a Sophie: palibe kukopa kwachikazi kunja kwa mbiri ya akazi ndi malo awo pagulu. Ndithudi, pali chinachake chosatha. Koma lero sitikudziwa ndendende zomwe tili nazo ndi zachimuna komanso zachikazi, kusiyana kwathu ndi kufanana kwathu ndi chiyani, zokhumba zathu ndi zotani - kachiwiri, zachimuna ndi zachikazi. Zonsezi ndi zosangalatsa kwambiri chifukwa zimatikakamiza kudzifunsa mafunso.

Komabe, ngati tiyang'ana, mwachitsanzo, malo olaula, zikuwoneka kwa ife kuti pali kusiyana kwakukulu pakati pa malingaliro a amuna ndi akazi ...

SK: Choncho, n’kofunika kukumbukira nthawi imene tinachokera. Ndikuganiza kuti kuyambira pomwe lingaliro la erotica lidayamba, udindo wa mkazi wakhala wodzitchinjiriza. Timabisalabe kumbuyo - nthawi zambiri mosazindikira - malingaliro otere okhudza ukazi omwe amatilepheretsa kupeza zithunzi zina. Tiyeni titenge zolaula monga chitsanzo. Ngati tinyalanyaza tsankho zambiri ndi zochita zodzitchinjiriza, zidzawonekeratu kuti amuna ambiri samamukonda, ngakhale amadzinenera mosiyana, ndipo akazi, m'malo mwake, amamukonda, koma amabisa mosamala. M'nthawi yathu ino, amayi akukumana ndi kusagwirizana koopsa pakati pa kugonana kwawo kwenikweni ndi maonekedwe ake. Pali kusiyana kwakukulu pakati pa ufulu umene amadzinenera ndi zomwe amamva komanso kudziletsa nthawi zonse.

Kodi zimenezi zikutanthauza kuti akazi akadali mikhole ya kaonedwe ka amuna ndi chitaganya chonse? Kodi iwo adzabisadi zongopeka, zokhumba zawo ndipo sadzazisintha kukhala zenizeni?

SK: Ndimakana mawu akuti "wozunzidwa" chifukwa ndimakhulupirira kuti amayi nawonso ali nawo. Nditayamba kuphunzira zolemba zolaula, ndidapeza chinthu chosangalatsa: timakhulupirira kuti izi ndi zolemba zachimuna, ndipo nthawi yomweyo timayembekezera - kuchokera kwa ife kapena kwa wolemba - mawonekedwe achikazi. Chabwino, mwachitsanzo, nkhanza ndi khalidwe lachimuna. Ndipo kotero ndidawona kuti amayi omwe amalemba mabuku otere amafunanso kukumana ndi nkhanza zomwe zimapezeka m'chiwalo cha abambo. Mwa ichi, akazi sali osiyana ndi amuna.

AE: Zomwe timatcha zolaula ndi izi: mutu wina umatsogolera chikhumbo chake ku phunziro lina, kumuchepetsera pa udindo wa chinthu. Pamenepa, mwamuna nthawi zambiri ndiye mutu, ndipo mkazi ndiye chinthu. Ndicho chifukwa chake timagwirizanitsa zolaula ndi makhalidwe a amuna. Koma ngati titenga zowona pazochitika za nthawi, tidzawona kuti kugonana kwachikazi sikunawonekere mpaka 1969, pamene mapiritsi oletsa kubereka anawonekera, ndipo pamodzi nawo kumvetsetsa kwatsopano kwa maubwenzi a thupi, kugonana ndi zosangalatsa. Izi zinali posachedwapa. Inde, pakhala pali akazi otchuka monga Louise Labe.¹, Colette² kapena Lou Andreas-Salome³omwe adayimilira kugonana kwawo, koma kwa amayi ambiri, chirichonse chinali chitangoyamba kumene. Ndizovuta kwa ife kutanthauzira kukhudzika kwa akazi chifukwa sitikudziwabe kuti ndi chiyani. Tsopano tikuyesera kufotokozera, koma poyamba tikuyenda mumsewu womwe udapangidwa kale ndi malamulo a kugonana kwa amuna: kuwatengera, kuwapanganso, kuyambira iwo. Kupatulapo, mwina, maubwenzi aakazi okhaokha.

SK: Sindingagwirizane nanu za malamulo a amuna. Inde, iyi ndi mbiri ya mgwirizano pakati pa phunziro ndi chinthu. Izi ndi zomwe kugonana kumatanthauza, malingaliro ogonana: tonse timakhudzidwa ndipo timatsutsana. Koma izi sizikutanthauza kuti zonse zimamangidwa motsatira malamulo aamuna.

Mosakayikira, ndife osiyana: thupi lachikazi lapangidwa kuti lilandire, mwamuna - kuti alowe. Kodi izi zimagwira ntchito mu kapangidwe ka erotica?

SK: Mutha kusintha chilichonse. Kumbukirani chithunzi cha nyini ya mano: mwamuna alibe chitetezo, mbolo yake ili mu mphamvu ya mkazi, akhoza kumuluma. Membala woyima amawoneka ngati akuwukira, koma ndiyenso chiwopsezo chachikulu cha abambo. Ndipo sikuti amayi onse amalota kuti alasidwe: mu erotica chirichonse chimasokonezeka.

AE: Tanthauzo la eroticism ndikulowetsa m'malingaliro athu ndi luso la kugonana motere ndi mphindi yakugonana. Derali, lomwe kuyambira kalekale linali lachimuna, tsopano limadziwika ndi akazi: nthawi zina amachita ngati amuna, nthawi zina motsutsana ndi amuna. Tiyenera kupereka mwaufulu ku chikhumbo chathu cha kusiyana kuti tivomereze kugwedezeka kumene chinthu chomwe sichili chachimuna kotheratu kapena chachikazi kotheratu chingatibweretsere. Ichi ndi chiyambi cha ufulu weniweni.

SK: Ndikugwirizana nanu pazamalingaliro ndi luso. Erotica si masewera omwe amatsogolera kulowa mkati. Kulowa simathero pakokha. Erotica ndi chilichonse chomwe timasewera mpaka pachimake, ndikulowa kapena popanda kulowa.

AE: Nditaphunzira za kugonana, tinauzidwa za momwe kugonana kumayendera: chilakolako, kuwonetseratu, kulowa mkati, orgasm ... ndi ndudu (kuseka). Kusiyana pakati pa mwamuna ndi mkazi kumatchulidwa makamaka pambuyo pa orgasm: mkazi nthawi yomweyo amatha wina. Apa ndi pamene zokopa zimabisika: mukuchita izi pali china chake choti chipitirire. Izi ndizovuta kwa ife amuna: kulowa m'malo ogonana pomwe kulowa ndi kutulutsa sikutanthauza kutsiriza konse. Mwa njira, nthawi zambiri ndimamva funso ili pakulandirira kwanga: kodi kugonana popanda kulowa mkati kungatchedwe kuti kugonana kwenikweni?

SK: Amayi ambiri amafunsanso funso ili. Ndikugwirizana nanu pa tanthawuzo la erotica: limachokera mkati, limachokera ku malingaliro, pamene zolaula zimagwira ntchito mwamakina, osasiya malo opanda chidziwitso.

AE: Zolaula ndi zomwe zimatifikitsa ku nyama, ku kukangana kwa mucous nembanemba wina ndi mzake. Sitikukhala mu hyper-erotic, koma m'gulu la hyper-zolaula. Anthu akuyang'ana njira yomwe ingalole kuti kugonana kuzichita mwamakina. Izi zimathandiza osati ku erotica, koma chisangalalo. Ndipo izi sizowona, chifukwa ndiye timadzitsimikizira tokha kuti ndife okondwa m'dera la kugonana. Koma izi sizilinso hedonism, koma malungo, nthawi zina zowawa, nthawi zambiri zopweteka.

SK: Chisangalalo chomwe chimatsutsana ndi kupindula. Tiyenera "kufika ku ..." Tili ndi maso athu, kumbali imodzi, zithunzi zambiri, malingaliro, malamulo, ndi zina, kusamala kwambiri. Zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti erotica imadutsa pakati pazigawo ziwirizi.

AE: Erotica nthawi zonse idzapeza njira yodziwonetsera yokha, chifukwa maziko ake ndi libido yathu. Pamene akatswiri ojambula panthaŵi ya Bwalo la Inquisition analetsedwa kujambula matupi amaliseche, anajambula Kristu atapachikidwa m’njira yonyansa kwambiri.

SK: Koma censorship ilipo ponseponse chifukwa timakhala nayo mkati mwathu. Erotica imapezeka nthawi zonse pomwe imaletsedwa kapena imawonedwa ngati yosayenera. Zikuwoneka kuti zonse zaloledwa lero? Eroticism yathu ipeza njira yake mumpata uliwonse ndikutuluka panthawi yomwe sitikuyembekezera. M'malo olakwika, pa nthawi yolakwika, ndi munthu wolakwika… Kukopeka kumabadwa chifukwa chophwanya malamulo athu osazindikira.

AE: Nthawi zonse timakhudza malo okhudzana kwambiri ndi erotica tikamalankhula zambiri. Mwachitsanzo, ndimatchula za ngalawa m’chizimezime, ndipo aliyense amamvetsa kuti tikunena za chombo. Kutha kumeneku kumathandizira kuti malingaliro athu, kuyambira ndi tsatanetsatane, amalize chinthu chonse. Mwina uku ndiko kusiyana kwakukulu pakati pa zolaula ndi zolaula: zoyambira zokhazokha, zachiwiri zimapereka mosabisa, mwankhanza. Palibe chidwi ndi zolaula.

¹ Louise Labé, 1522-1566, wolemba ndakatulo waku France, adakhala moyo wotseguka, olemba, oimba ndi ojambula mnyumba mwake.

² Colette (Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette), 1873-1954, anali wolemba waku France, yemwe amadziwikanso ndi ufulu wake wamakhalidwe komanso nkhani zambiri zachikondi ndi akazi ndi amuna. Knight of the Order of the Legion of Honor.

³ Lou Andreas-Salome, Louise Gustavovna Salome (Lou Andreas-Salome), 1861‒1937, mwana wamkazi wa General wa Russian Service Gustav von Salome, wolemba ndi filosofi, bwenzi ndi wolimbikitsa wa Friedrich Nietzsche, Sigmund Freud ndi Rainer-Maria Rilke.